I wanted to take a break after the previous Christianity and Me post.
Maybe for a day or two, but never would I have imagined that once again I'm here the very next day, with my brain cells protesting "Sleep!!! you pig!" (they are getting softer now, cus they are dying off fast ^^) from the lack of sleep.
I think this is worth it though.
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Terri commented the following on my Christianity and Me post...
"I guess if we put ourselves in their shoes & if we believe in what they believe in, that our friends n loved ones will die if they don't believe, then I think it would be sensible to do whatever we can, hoping that our loved ones can be saved. Only good intentions. or not I think they wouldn't bother preaching as well with all the condemnations they have to endure.
It's like 'I know it's frustrating to be forced preached, but I don't want you to die either'.
Bcos if it's actually true, and if I realise one day that it is, then I would probably hope that they would not stop giving up hope on me.
Just my 2 cents. I respect your beliefs :) "
@Terri, I loved your comment. Really.
I never looked at it that way. I always knew they (the preachers) had good intentions, but not to the extent like you described.
Thank you for opening my eyes and heart :)
It seems really tough to draw a line between what's is considered ok and what's not. Before you posted your comment, in 'Christianity and Me' I was was so sure that not preaching against other people's wishes was that line I was looking for...but now you got me thinking...
Now I'm in this dilemma. I truly do not like being preached to, yet I feel for what you said so much...
I do not want to give the green light and say "Ok, go ahead and force preach to whoever you want because you come from such good intentions" because being forced preached to still bothers me, yet now because of your comment, I don't want to say "You are in the WRONG because you forced preach to someone..."
Where is the line that separates what extent of preaching is acceptable and what's not now?
Is there no common ground for the two to be reconciled?
Is the best we can do is avoiding all situations that warrants the possibility of forced preaching taking place altogether?
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Anyway, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has commented! :D
Thanks for sharing your experiences and ideas with me and other readers here. Most are really insightful!
Continue to comment because I will be reading them. Your comments be will heard and pondered upon :)
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In Christianity and Me, I thought I had an answer.
But it wasn't the case afterall...
*sigh*
I still have so many things to learn....but it's ok cus I'm still young, only 19 right? ^^
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By the way, I found Terri's comment to be similar to the tag I mentioned previously, "-.-: you might want to try to look things from a different angle. Do the preachers look like they want to do harm to you? seriously, be more openminded."
-.- could very well mean the same thing Terri did, except he said it in a different way.
Look how I responded to each one...
I learned something today.
If you want others to listen, BE NICE :)
A small change in attitude, a better phrasing of words makes all the difference.
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Lastly, I know many non-believers who have empathized with me on Christian Indoctrination because they experienced forced preaching like I did.
I think many of you are still bothered by your experiences, so I hope that reading Terri's comment will make you feel better about the whole thing like I did.
I know you will.
15 comments:
"Lastly, I know many non-believers who have empathized with me on Christian Indoctrination because they experienced forced preaching like I did." <- my sentiments.
in a way what Terri said is true, BUT the good intentions should be moderated. it is quite easy to read body language. stop if people felt put off.
I agreed with Wayang Times.
If forced preaching doesnt help and only put others off.
Then i think it defeats the whole purpose.
I believe in progressive 'education'
Give some breathing space and time for others to learn, respect and embrace your faith.
I wouldnt say they are wrong either, but instead of helping to spread the faith, i think they are doing the reverse. Many times we got put off by the religion not by the teaching itself but by forced preaching we encountered
BTW, may I add that Im married to a catholic husband, who came from a strict catholic family.
We have both come to a understanding that I be given the freedom to choose my religion.
I will still attend Bible class with a open heart & mind, but MAY NOT convert eventually.
hello there. just finish reading most of your posts about you and christianity. Let me tell you i feel you really i do.
I'm a christian, but i understand perfectly well what you went through.
For many years throughout my teenage life and my college life i didn't go to church nor did i attend anything christian unless my pals brought me otherwise i wasn't interested. No, i'm was never an atheist, i just didn't know which god is which. don't worry, i'm not planning to tell you my life story or preach you to death. The one thing that freaked me out about christianity was possesion and the overall feel of condemning eyes. Heck, i'm not perfect, hell even now i'm not perfect. Back then, i was afraid to go to church but i thank god though that my parents never forced me to church back then. I actually understand how even people like Marilyn Manson can become who he is today.lol.
I mean considering the fact that you were a catholic, i reckon the exercise, kneeling down and what not must really be tiring.
Tell you the truth, my life did change (i'm sorry..christian tendencies..lol) but ironically from a pastor from singapore at new creation church..you should check it out if you want, if you don't, it's okay you know.
I myself hate religion, religious people kill for god..simply put, if god wanted us dead, wouldn't he have done it already? But of course i respect people in their choices.
anyway, i think i've type a shitstorm of a comment and i apologize if i sound too preachy.
anyway. good day to you miss.
"Where is the line that separates what extent of preaching is acceptable and what's not now?"
Does it even exists?
I think this is relative to each person's tolerance.
`What Terri said have logic. But still I feel it goes against the christian logic. Why would their god create a human knowing he/she will suffer eternally after life if their god loves everyone? Than it simply means that their god is not benevolent and doesn't love everyone equally.
What Terri said is true, it's hard to refute such argument in a satisfactory way.
@Char, really insightful! yes i agree that sometimes we get put off by forced preaching even though we were initially open to learn more.
People who force preach should keep in mind that they are achieving the opposite effect of what they intended it to be.
You don't want to push people away instead do you?
@shadowmoon, the line i'm talking about is already relative to each person's tolerance.
since everybody's tolerance of preaching is different, everyone's definition of force preaching is different. I was hoping to utilize it to draw a line...but I couldn't :(
"Why would their god create a human knowing he/she will suffer eternally after life if their god loves everyone?"
I think Christians will probably they something like "because God loves each of us, he gave everyone a choice."
You might not agree, neither do I. But I think this is what they might say. Correct me if I'm wrong :)
Hello shu fen! Steph choy here, if you remember me. =) k i'm gonna post like the longest comment ever. haha. you've been warned.
Hey first of all, cool blog. i like your posts: they're argumentative and provocative, and they actually grow with insight as you further explore the topic. i like.=) i love how you're being really acceptive of different comments and perceptions.
k you may roughly know my background: i've been raised as a christian and been to church at all (not so often these days thought)
just wanna comment on some of the things brought up in your post. The whole idea about condemning non christians/the unborn/ ppl who have passed away w/o hearing the gospel... well honestly i don't think anyone has the right to claim where they go or who is allowed to heaven. have you died? no. who has control over admittance to heaven? christians? no way. God, yes. Going by the logic that God is all powerful and his ways are beyond our understanding, i would conclude that he allows whoever he wants into heaven. i choose to believe that the God out there isn't being bound by the rule of redemptions that christian keep preaching. i mean, there are so called 'believers' who act like complete dicks and there are non-believers who are decent and kind... i'd be disappointed if the powerful God out there is so, well, narrow minded.
to me i believe in an all mighty God, the one that creates happiness,love, beauty, whatever form they may be in. perhaps he's even present, in some essence, in other religions, so thus i respect and am willing to learn more about other religions and believes too.
yup some people call this new-age christianity (ish), you can go check it out if you want, but i prefer this to the traditional christian religion cuz it's more acceptive, has less rules, and basically preaches love. if force preaching offend people, that's not love. don't do it. if you study the bible closely and break christianity down to it's core, it all about love. Love thy neighbour as yourself. Love thy God thy lord with all your heart. God is love. God so loved the world that he sent his son etc. It's sad that some christian deviate from this core value.
yes, some might consider it love to warn non believers of hell etc but i guess it shld be approached in a respectful way. after all respect is showing love to a degree, no? to me it's difficult to draw a solid line. to me i think mere telling, in a non pushy way, about the concepts of redemption is enough. trying to hint that your friend is gonna hell is just...retarded. back to my previous point, how sure are you that the redemption rule works, anyway, when God's the one that's choosing?
which brings me to the point about what the bible says etc.
bear in mind the bible, albeit supposedly 'God's word via the human form', has been edited, altered, translated from it's original form. bear in mind that there are passages that the pope (can't remember which one) and a bunch of church leaders 'decided' that they shouldn't make the cut. hmmm... divine intervention or human decision? go figure, i guess we'll never know, that's why we should not take the bible literally. that's why i'm going the way of love. screw the rules man, they're unreliable, half of them are not even applicable today.
not only that, there are different interpretations of the very same bible. go to different churches and they can emphasis of different values. so which to believe?
i'm sorry i can't give you a solid yes/no answer, cuz honestly i don't believe that exists. it's like how you define good and evil. is there really a clear line, or can there be gray? i believe the world is gray, religion in gray, and the only way to live is with respect and love for the earth, for fellow human beings. think about: isn't all the problems in the world caused because people are not respecting and loving others?
k this is my 2 cents worth. value for money huh. hope this gives you new insight, i apologize for being so damn long winded. haha. take care and continue blogging, babe!
love, steph
ps i think how you debated with your bf's friends is..hilarious.haha. just shows how textbook some christians are. it's good that you question them, it's sad they can't give a decent answer.
WHOAH STEPH!!!!
of cos i remember you xD
the girl who kicked me in the shins and gave me a blue black in Primary school! xD lol, i still remember that ^^
the girl who started a journal and i followed :) hahaha, i still keep a diary now ^^
i still remember "competing" with you who could compose a better song on our recorders XD
such a pleasant surprise to get this long comment from you! glad that you liked what I write :D
thanks for putting in the effort to share your insights...i like the new-age Christianity view you are adopting, it seems so much cooler :)
cheers!
I believe religion is simply a tool humanity created to explain the things science (or logic, whatever) couldn't explain. We can see evidences of this because religion (specially christian) changed a LOT throughout humanity's history.
And after all, the bible is talking about something we don't even know if it really happened. People say it did but there are no solid evidences AFAIK.
Like it was said, the bible was edited, translated, edited again and translated to many languages. The parts that Judas wrote was completely forgotten. There are also many other apostles that were cut out from the bible because the church decided so.
But still, one part that, AFAIK, is still in the bible is the part that tells when Jesus was there, dying on the cross. It said that there were two other condemned with him (two robbers or something among those lines) and one of them talked to Jesus, saying that he was scared, that he wanted to go to heaven but thought it wouldn't be possible because of what he did in his life and all that but that he regretted the way he lived his life and repented. After repenting Jesus said that now he (the robber) would be allowed to go to heaven because he repented in time. So, my interpretation is that you have to repented in some point of your life, but from the depths of your mind and not just saying that.
And there's also that idea christian tells that those who commit sins will go to hell and all that but that children and fetuses are an exception because they don't know about right or wrong so their acts is not charged with will of doing benevolence or malevolence. Ok, but...psychopaths also doesn't know what's right or wrong. They feel no guilt, they do what they do because they want and they have no sense of right or wrong. Therefore their acts is also not charged with will of doing benevolence or malevolence. Does it means that a psychopath will also go to heaven? Can my point be seem? In other words, the way a psychopath acts is the same way a child acts (as both have no notion of right and wrong).
This can be also seem on Gil Vicent's theater. I don't know the title it was given in English since it's a Portuguese work but I believe it's a well known piece.
There are many other points but it would take quite a long time to go through all of those and the comment would be too long.
Hi Shu Fen, I was quite surprised to see my comment in this post, but I'm glad you appreciated it :)
As for how far one should go in preaching, my take is.. there's no rule of thumb for this I guess..
Because if one really sets his heart in preaching to someone,then he's probably be thinking 'have i done enough?'. And would probably annoy alot more people along the way.
However, I wouldn't say only Christians preach :D Same goes with non-christians, preaching on non-christianity.
But hey, if it's meant to be good for us, and only with good intentions, whatever preaching that comes my way, I'm all ears. Because it's worth a listen. Life is afterall a journey.
Just my 2 cents again :)
I'm a Christian and I do preach out of concern for my loved ones--but not the way it is stereotypically seen, i.e. forced preaching. In agreement to Char and Wayang Times, I say, preaching just should not be "forced" but instead, for the lack of better terms, be merely shared--not necessarily through words but more importantly through the way a Christian lives his live, which unfortunately a lot of Christians haven't realized yet. A Christian must not only talk his walk, but more necessarily, walk his talk.
And oh, I don't believe religion is what saves people. Religion has actually frustrated more people than it has saved them. Why? Because religion, in a way, is merely man's attempt to reach God, and should you want to do that, you'll just end up frustrated--because no amount of human effort (i.e. sacrifice, ritual) can propel you to a God who's as infinite as the universe He created. God is just unfathomable, hard to reach, reason why it was He himself who made His way to us instead so we don't have to try so hard to our dismay--we fail you know, we're human. But He became human so we can easily relate to him--yep, relationship, and not religion, is the key.
Now, my priority is to enjoy this relationship with Him, and just like any relationship, there has been and will be up's and down's. The good thing is, it's always Him making His way to me as He is the more capable one in doing it. All I have to do is to let go and let Him work out my life by following His precepts for a full life. And just like any relationship, I must not abuse His grace and forgiveness.
Man, my comment has gotten too long, haha--I can't help it. It's just that I've experienced Him so much in my life to an extent where no amount of logic, arguments, science and what not can shake me off it. And when I say I experience Him, it's rarely mystical, mind you, because as much as He baffles us with His unfathomable identity, He does want us to get to know and experience Him in ways we understand--that is if we LET Him.
Well, much has been said, this could garner some opposition and agreement or not at all. Nonetheless, I really felt good having shared this :D
By the way, there's this book called "The Case for Christ" and I say it's a must read for the highly intellectual who wants to know him for who he really is. It's written by a highly acclaimed, (formerly) atheistic journalist Lee Strobel, who was all-out in looking for the loopholes of Christianity and upon finding so, instead discovered the real Christ behind the flawed religion.
Much love and respect for everyone,
Jaydee
And, oh, I'm not implying I'm hallucinatory or even schizophrenic (LOL) when I said I experience Him. I just meant "seeing" Him in the way He has tremendously changed me, in the way my life has been unfolding for me, and in the way He has done the same for many others in the same faith as mine.
Stay golden,
Jaydee
To those of science, let me say this. You have won the war.
The wheels have been in motion for a long time Your victory has been inevitable. Never before has it been as obvious as it is at this moment. Science is the new God.
Medicine, electronic communications, space travel, genetic manipulation… These are the miracles about which we now tell our children, These are the miracles we herald as proof that science will bring us the answers. The ancient stories of immaculate conceptions, burning bushes and parting seas are no longer relevant. God has become obsolete. Science has won the battle. We concede.
But science’s victory has cost every one of us. And it has cost us deeply.
Science may have alleviated the miseries of disease and drudgery and provided an array of gadgetry for our entertainment and convenience, but it has left us in a world without wonder. Our sunsets have been reduced to wavelengths and frequencies. The complexities of the universe have been shredded into mathematical equations. Even our self-worth as human beings has been destroyed. Science proclaims that Planet Earth and its inhabitants are a meaningless speck in the grand scheme. A cosmic accident.
Even the technology that promises to unite us, divides us. Each of us is now electronically connected to the globe, and yet we feel utterly alone. We are bombarded with violence, division, fracture and betrayal. Skepticism has become a virtue. Cynicism and demand for proof has become enlightened thought. Is it any wonder that humans now feel more depressed and defeated than they have at any point in human history? Does science hold anything sacred? Science looks for answers by probing our unborn fetuses. Science even presumes to rearrange our own DNA. It shatters God’s world into smaller and smaller pieces in quest of meaning… and all it finds is more questions.
The ancient war between science and religion is over. You have won. But you have not won fairly. You have not won by providing answers. You have won by so radically reorienting our society that the truths we once saw as signposts now seem inapplicable. Religion cannot keep up. Scientific growth is exponential. It feeds on itself like a virus. Ever new breakthrough opens doors for new breakthroughs. Mankind took thousands of years to progress from the wheel to the car. Yet only decades from the car to space. Now we measure scientific progress in weeks. We are spinning out of control. The rift between us grows deeper and deeper, and as religion is left behind, people find themselves in a spiritual void. We cry out for meaning. And believe me, we do cry out. We see UFOs, engage in channeling, spirit contact, out-of-body experiences, mindquests – all these eccentric ideas have a scientific veneer, but they are unashamedly irrational. They are the desperate cry of the modern soul, lonely and tormented, crippled by its own enlightenment and its inability to accept meaning in anything removed from technology.
Science, you say, will save us. Science, I say, has destroyed us. Since the days of Galileo, the church has tried to slow the relentless march of science, sometimes with misguided means but always with benevolent intention. Even so, the temptations are too great for man to resist. I warn you, look around yourselves. The promises of science have not been kept. Promises of efficiency and simplicity have bred nothing but pollution and chaos. We are a fractured and frantic species… moving down a path of destruction.
Who is this God science? Who is the God who offers his people power but now moral framework to tell you how to use that power? What kind of god gives a child fire but does not warn the child of its dangers? The language of science comes with no signposts about good and bad. Science textbooks tell us how to create a nuclear reaction, and yet they contain no chapter asking us if it is a good or a bad idea.
To science, I say this. The church is tired. We are exhausted from trying to be your signposts. Our resources are drying up from our campaign to be the voice of balance as you plow blindly on in your quest for smaller chips and larger profits. We ask not why you will not govern yourselves, but how can you? Your world moves so fast that if you stop even for an instant to consider the implications of your actions, someone more efficient will whip past you in a blur. So you move on. You proliferate weapons of mass destruction, but it is the Pope who travels the world beseeching leaders to use restraint. You clone living creatures, but it is the church reminding us to consider the moral implications of our actions You encourage people to interact on phones, video screens and computers, but it is the church who opens its doors and reminds us to commune in person as we were meant to do. You even murder unborn babies in the name of research that will save lives. Again, it is the church who points out the fallacy of this reasoning.
And all the while, you proclaim the church is ignorant. But who is more ignorant? The man who cannot define lightning, or the man who does not respect its awesome power? This church is reaching out to you. Reaching out to everyone. And yet the more we reach, the more you push us away. Show me proof there is a God, you say. I say use your telescopes to look to the heavens and tell me how there could not be a God!
You ask what does God look like. I say, where did that question come from? The answers are one and the same. Do you not see God in your science? How can you miss Him! You proclaim that even the slightest change in the force of gravity of the weight of an atom would have rendered our universe a lifeless mist rather than our magnificent sea of heavenly bodies, and yet you fail to see God’s hand in this? Is it really so much easier to believe that we simply chose the right card from a deck of billions? Have we become so spiritually bankrupt that we would rather believe in mathematical impossibility than in a power greater than us?
Whether or not you believe in God, you must believe this. When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability. Faith… all faiths… are admonitions that there is something we cannot understand, something to which we are accountable… With faith we are accountable to each other, to ourselves, and to a higher truth. Religion is flawed, but only because man is flawed. If the outside world could see this church as I do… looking beyond the ritual of these walls… they would see a modern miracle… a brotherhood of imperfect, simple souls wanting only to be a voice of compassion in a world spinning out of control.
Are we obsolete? Are these men dinosaurs? Am I? Does the world really need a voice for the poor, the weak, the oppressed, the unborn child? Do we really need souls like these who, though imperfect, spend their lives imploring each of us to read the signposts of morality and not lose our way?”
To anonymous, whoever you are, I just have to say-->WELL-SAID. You definitely got my faith stronger with what you wrote.
Kudos,
Jaydee
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